Sarah Rodriguez: Transform Your Dog's Behavior with Shaping | E29

[00:00:00] I think sometimes when we're luring, they get so stuck on zone-on food and they're just like looking looking looking. They're not even thinking about what their body is doing. So with shaping, they're really able to really think about I just moved my left back foot and that's what got me the reinforcement, you know, and it's it's really what helps dogs to be so smart.

[00:00:24] Welcome to the Pet Care Report podcast by Pet Summits. Here's your dog training host, Melissa Vieira. Welcome back to the Pet Care Report and today is episode we're going to talk all about shaping.

[00:00:42] Whether or not you are familiar with shaping, we hope you will explore this topic further with us. Shaping is a technique that we use in order to help train our animals new things. Our expert guest today has a way of visualizing the finished behaviors that she wants to train and breaking them up into small achievable goals that make sense for the animal.

[00:01:05] Shaping can have lasting results but it can also make dog training more accessible. Joining us today is Sarah Rodriguez, a certified professional dog trainer as well as a fear-free professional with a degree in psychology from Cal Poly Pomona.

[00:01:22] Her expertise in shelter and rescue animals is one of the things that she is passionate about but Sarah also enjoys working with pet owners and pets and helping them connect through her venture through home schooled hound.

[00:01:38] Sarah has over two decades of experience working with shelter and rescue animals. So Sarah, thank you so much for being here today. I'm very excited to explore this topic with you because I absolutely love shaping but before we do that can you tell us a little bit more about home schooled hound and your experience with both working with clients as well as working directly with rescue animals as well.

[00:02:04] Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here so I started my business home schooled hound because I really wanted to help people learn how to communicate with their animals better.

[00:02:15] I started as a young teen volunteering at the animal shelter and I really saw how many people relinquished their animals because they didn't understand them, they didn't know how to fix behavior problems, they weren't bonded to them so it was easy for them to just re-home them or relinquish them to the animal shelter.

[00:02:34] So I really wanted to kind of bridge that gap and help people to understand animal behavior, how to communicate with them better and how to really bond through training.

[00:02:45] So I really it was important to me to really build that that that built that relationship between people and their pets through training.

[00:02:54] So I wanted to teach people how to work with their own animals and so I coach them one on one and they can learn how to teach their animal behaviors and it really makes me happy to be able to see how people are like so surprised at how smart their animal is.

[00:03:10] And I love to see that because I think that really helps them invest in them and really see what their capable love.

[00:03:17] And so I also love to work with shelter animals to help make cute videos, teach them things to help them get a new home.

[00:03:24] So when you're working with shelter animals, you're working directly with the animals and do you have any specific behaviors that you like to try to train them before they get adopted? That might be helpful for any potential adopters.

[00:03:38] Yeah, so I think one of the first things that I actually usually start to try and teach them is not to mug the treat bag because we can't do much training when they are mugging the treat bag.

[00:03:49] So I like to just start by reinforcing any behaviors that do not involve them trying to steal all this reads and that can be anything from a sit or a down or just standing there politely.

[00:04:01] And then depending on the animal, some animals already know behaviors. So I just start reinforcing that so that we just start to learn to work together.

[00:04:10] And then from there, you know, I might see a dog who I think, okay, let's teach them to go to their place or go to a bed on cue, maybe picking up a toy.

[00:04:21] So it really depends on the animal and what I just kind of inspired to do in that moment or what they kind of seem to be meaning towards offering more.

[00:04:30] I really like to kind of go with, bushel with a new animal is working with behaviors that they tend towards anyways because they're going to be super successful learning for the first time with me or possibly for the first time ever. We don't know their history.

[00:04:45] So I want them to be successful and have fun. And so some behaviors are just more natural, whether that be like pulling at something or nosing at something, whatever it is, it can be a nose target, shake paw, whatever it is but they'll be reinforced.

[00:05:00] And one thing I actually meant to mention this in your bio because I think this is Sony as well is you work with other animals. So not just dogs, you have experience with other species as well.

[00:05:11] Yes, I do. I have my little parrot, Gracie and I absolutely love birds. I think that they are so amazing and there's such social creatures that they really do love to learn as well.

[00:05:24] So so I do I love teaching a variety of different animals. Anything every animal can learn and it's a really fun game for them to figure out what we want and get reinforce and have fun along the way.

[00:05:36] And I think that's the really neat thing about shaping is that allows that opportunity to work with other species, not just dogs. So there's a lot of flexibility there.

[00:05:46] So can you tell us in your own words what is shaping so someone who has never heard of this before? How would you explain it?

[00:05:55] Yeah, so shaping is a little bit different than like the traditional luring or targeting methods and that with luring and targeting were kind of helping to get those behaviors pretty early on.

[00:06:07] So it's going to look very similar to the end behavior with shaping where reinforcing tiny little increments or little steps towards that finished behavior.

[00:06:17] So you can kind of think like painting a picture and you're like reinforcing every brush stroke towards way you want that picture to look like.

[00:06:25] And I kind of like to compare it to a game of charades, it can be really fun for dogs to be like trying to figure out what behavior is going to get them that reinforcement and it's a fun game.

[00:06:37] And there's such tiny steps that we reinforce to get to that end goal that most of the time it doesn't look anything like the finished behavior that we want.

[00:06:46] But we kind of have it in our minds of the behavior that what we wanted to look like and we just shape every tiny little step to get there.

[00:06:55] And so the dog stays really interested in the game because they're being reinforced so much for every step in the right direction.

[00:07:02] I really like that you compare it to a game because that's also how I think of it, even if I don't have any specific training goals in that moment, I use shaping as kind of like this puzzle or this game that I do with my dogs and it's just that fun and enrichment and it's that time together where we can kind of zone everything else out and and just play that game.

[00:07:23] Like he said, it's like a game of charades and if you're feels really engaging for both of us, both the animal and for the trainer as well.

[00:07:30] Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes when you're in a rut and you just go into a training session and you're like, I have no idea what we're going to work on today.

[00:07:37] And then the dog gets to be creative and inspire you on like, oh, that'd be a cute trick. And you're kind of just starting out with like offer me a behavior.

[00:07:45] Let's see what you feel like doing today.

[00:07:47] Absolutely. Now for beginners who are just learning about shaping, can you tell us a little bit more about what you recommend?

[00:07:56] So shaping oftentimes we're talking about using food and markers. Can you tell us what that looks like?

[00:08:04] And how you would go about teaching a new client or a new human student how to shape with their dog?

[00:08:11] Yeah, so I think it's shaping what the most important ingredient for that is going to be patience and consistency because it is really hard when you're first starting out.

[00:08:21] I know for me it was like almost frustrating at first because you're like, but this doesn't look anything like the behavior that I want.

[00:08:28] And so we think of it in terms of like, well, I'm supposed to just like have a look like the end behavior.

[00:08:34] And so it doesn't feel very achievable when you're doing tiny, tiny steps. But what you'll find is when you start with shaping your dog starts to offer behaviors and they get really into it.

[00:08:46] And so they start to learn how to kind of think for themselves and they're not really so focused on like where our hand is with the food or you know, you really see those wheels turning.

[00:08:57] So I encourage anyone that's like starting out maybe they haven't tried shaping before to really give it a try because you will see like just how smart your dog is you'll see those wheels turning.

[00:09:09] And I think one of the most important things is to use something that the dog is really reinforced by so, you know, a piece of food, you know, treats that the dog really loves and then also to to really practice your markers.

[00:09:22] So that the timing is perfect with those tiny little steps because that's what we're doing. We're shaping the end behaviors.

[00:09:30] So we want to be really consistent with marking just at the right time where it's a tiny step in the right direction.

[00:09:38] And a marker can be for our listeners, it could be a tool you could use a clicker but you could also use your voice or you could use something visual.

[00:09:47] So there are many different types of markers and I'll let Sarah tell you a little bit more about that. Do you have any favorite types of markers or the type of marker that you like to use?

[00:09:57] Yeah, so I tend to just use yes. I like to use my voice. I do have a disability. So it makes it easier for me to just okay, I've got my voice on me.

[00:10:07] So I'll just use that and I have you sick clickers well before they also have like apps on the phone that you can do it through their two of activities and issue but there's, you know, if your dog has, you know, issues with like hearing or something you can do a thumbs up or like a little flashing light.

[00:10:26] So there's a lot of ways to mark the behavior but basically you're being consistent with whatever that marker is so that they know as soon as I see that or hear that the tree is coming.

[00:10:39] And you're trying to mark exactly when that step happens. So you're breaking up that behavior into small little bits and pieces and it's that's the game part for us, I think is that timing trying to get that time and correct and it does feel like a game because you're trying to say it.

[00:10:54] Exactly the right moment so it's kind of fun. Yeah, it's like a challenge for them and for us and so I think that's what makes it so fun absolutely.

[00:11:03] Now can you talk a little bit more about how shaping has helped you how shaping has helped dog training be accessible for you and for others as well because I know this is one of the things that you do as you help others find ways to make dog training accessible and to find creative ways to train.

[00:11:23] Yeah, so for me like I've always had small dogs and so recently you know I've started working with bigger dogs at the animal shelter and I'm like oh this is cool.

[00:11:32] I can actually like lure them and use those kinds of methods that I couldn't use with my dogs before but being in a power chair and having smaller dogs they're kind of short and so I can't reach them to do traditional boring

[00:11:45] and so I've really found shaping to be super effective because I can get behaviors that I couldn't otherwise physically get down to the floor to lure and I'm able to get those behaviors that I want.

[00:12:01] And I think that it has really helped my dogs to really think for themselves and I love to see that because it really builds confidence even on fearful dogs because it's like if like I can offer a behavior that I can do.

[00:12:14] I can offer behaviors and they're not going to tell me no and like you know they get to be really creative and so when they start to be able to practice like offering behaviors it's they can really get creative too and I think that builds confidence for them as well.

[00:12:30] So for me whether that's working with my bird or working with dogs, working with cats any animal can learn through shaping and it's because even something as simple as like you want to teach them to fetch something all they have to do is look at it to start.

[00:12:47] And so you can start with tiny little increments and tiny steps like that and they're really excited because it's like wow that's all I had to do and it's a step in the right direction.

[00:12:57] I think that's the big takeaway that I hope our listeners get from this is it's hard to imagine if you've never done any type of shaping before it's hard for pet parents to imagine what that looks like so your perfect example of using fetch like you want the dog to do these steps that seem very difficult but you're trying to do it.

[00:13:16] It's difficult but you're just starting with just look at the thing like whatever it is just look at it and a lot of pet parents might not understand how that can actually turn into this lovely finished behavior of bringing an item all the way back.

[00:13:31] So I think that's a really exciting thing that hopefully our listeners take away today is those little small steps will turn into something amazing but you just have to stick with it and like you said, the animals learn to offer so they really learn how to participate.

[00:13:45] And how to offer these really cool things and it's just I think it's amazing to watch because it becomes like that name of they're trying to figure out what works, which is really cool.

[00:13:54] It is anything too for like fearful dogs. It's perfect because you do not have to even be close to them. You don't have to handle them if they're really really fearful and you've just adopted a dog who maybe is terrified of the world.

[00:14:08] You can start with something so small and they're getting reinforced for it. So they get to be reinforced for coming out of their shell essentially and they can participate in this game with you without even needing to be outside of their comfort zone if being touched or being in close proximity to someone.

[00:14:25] That's a really good point and I think that also brings up something else regarding cooperative care. I believe you have a little bit of a specialty in helping dogs with cooperative care as well.

[00:14:36] So also grooming and handling. Yes, I do and actually I adopted and I hope to be taking a video soon but I adopted my dog Danny in February from the animal shelter and it turns out he's blind and one I so when we took him to the vet hospital, you know they said, okay, we need to see an eye doctor.

[00:14:56] It wasn't reversible unfortunately so he's just blind and one I but he gets a long fantastically but they said he would need to drop in his eye every day.

[00:15:05] And I remember thinking like, okay, well, I mean, he seems friendly enough so shouldn't be that hard. So we come home and he pulled the bag of pull the bag out, pull the drops out of the bag and he tucks his tail and runs away.

[00:15:17] And I was like, we are not doing this next every day for the rest of his life. So I took two weeks and I trained him to do a chin rest and to hold it there while we do the eyedrop and now like every evening he knows it's eyedrop time.

[00:15:32] And as soon as you pull that eyedrop out, he starts leaping and he gets super excited to get his eyedrop.

[00:15:38] Yeah, so it went from him possibly being terrified every evening, happy to fight with him, restraining him to do an eyedrop and instead he's like, that's the highlight of his day, he loves it.

[00:15:50] And that's the perfect example of those steps. So you didn't just expect him to go through that process start to finish in one session, you said two weeks he worked with him, which really that's not very long.

[00:16:02] That's not really to accomplish that, especially if you already had some feelings about the eyedrops before you think exactly that's huge.

[00:16:10] And what was that first session, what did that first session look like and how did shaping play a role in that?

[00:16:16] Yeah. So firstly started with I just got a particular towel and I said, okay, this is going to be our chin rest towel that he's going to know he's going to get his eyedrop because I don't want to trick him and make him think like, you know, this is something that I'm going to be scared of.

[00:16:31] So I just we just picked a towel that's going to be the towel and I just started to have a little tray on wheelchair.

[00:16:38] I got him up on the couch and then I just kind of let him sort of sniff around because he knew I had the treats and as soon as his little chin went down onto my tray on where the towel was, I just you know,

[00:16:51] I was going to force that and those were those tiny steps that I was able to start getting that chin rest.

[00:16:56] And so we built duration, I started adding in bringing out the bottle just to desensitize him to it and then it opened the bottle because there's also the smell that they need to get used to as well before starting anything.

[00:17:11] And then getting him used to having a hand on his forehead to kind of pull back the lid a little bit so we can drop it in.

[00:17:19] So it was just a bunch of little tiny steps, but it went really fast and then of course moving the bottle by his face.

[00:17:25] We get used to it coming near and eventually because I knew that the drops could potentially sting a little.

[00:17:33] So we just started with normal refresh drops instead so that way it's the sensation of something cold dropping in, but it wouldn't be something aversive to start.

[00:17:43] But yeah, it just took two weeks and he was able to do a lot of sessions and course and there was two weeks but he did fantastic.

[00:17:50] We used really yummy his favorites ground turkey so we use that and he looked forward to it now and it sounds like a lot of steps.

[00:17:58] So I was just trying to bring that in short sessions with something I value that went really quickly.

[00:18:03] I think that's really inspiring for anyone new to shaping to hear that story because it's not just training tricks or training obedience skills sometimes is training life skills like things that they have to do your dog.

[00:18:16] What is your dog's name? I'm sorry.

[00:18:18] Danny, D-A-N-N-Y. Yeah.

[00:18:20] So Danny has to have these eye drops forever and you're making sure that that's a positive experience for him. So that's really important.

[00:18:27] Absolutely. And I think too it's something that the humans in the house wouldn't look forward to either if you have to wrestle with your dog every evening.

[00:18:35] So it really is about the welfare of the animal and making sure that we're not adding in stressors where we don't need to if we can teach them to cooperate and to not be scared of whatever we have to do for their care.

[00:18:48] They're going to be so much better off and it became a game and he knows that like after dinner, it's eye drop time and he's going to get a taste of whatever I had that evening.

[00:18:57] So he looks forward to it. It's something always new and exciting and it's it's a fun game for him.

[00:19:02] And it for the dogs is really no difference and this is what I love about it. There's no difference between that and a trick in their mind.

[00:19:09] Exactly.

[00:19:10] So you might have a different perspective, but for them, it just feels like another another fun trick session or shaping session.

[00:19:16] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:17] And you also like to train tricks to both dogs as well as birds.

[00:19:22] So this is really cool. So do you have any favorite tricks that you have trained time and time again that you use shaping for that you could give us some some tips on how to conquer those tricks through shaping?

[00:19:36] Yeah, well actually I think fetch is a good one because fetch is something that seems like all that's cute and that's fun.

[00:19:42] But for Daning again, you know I adopted him. He was four years old and it turned out that he also had an own pelvic fracture.

[00:19:51] So although he was pretty much healed the doctor said looks like that's why he got blind because he got hit by a car on that one side.

[00:19:59] So oddly like even if he was excited and running in our house, the second he pulled out a toy and you threw it like he would shut down and it was like he found it aversive and I thought that was so odd.

[00:20:10] So I started out with shaping just to teach him to be able to play and I wanted to be able to play with him in the yard get out some energy because he's mixed with poodle.

[00:20:20] And so he could get the crazy sometimes and to blow off some steam and so I wanted to be able to play with him in the yard.

[00:20:27] And so that's what we did. I started pretty early on a couple of weeks after I got him. I just started with like having him look at the toy and then target a toy pick up a toy and if it's all these little steps again but it ended up being where it was something that I shaped so I could play with him.

[00:20:45] And it became because he already knew now how to like put something in his mouth. We were able to use that to also shake tugging with me so he can play a game of tug to shake a toy and get all like aggressive with an playful.

[00:21:00] And so we were able to shake all these play behaviors that otherwise he was too afraid to participate in for some reason whether that was maybe during his healing process.

[00:21:10] He tried to play and it hurt I don't know but he found it aversive for some reason and now he loves it.

[00:21:17] So in the starting point would you say it really depends on the dog so if you're training to play fetch does that starting point really depend on the dogs level of interest and other aspects as well.

[00:21:31] It does so I think for him he was a dog who would not even pick up a toy. If you have a dog who loves to play then your starting point might be pick up the toy and then take one step towards you or you know if you want to teach him to actually bring it to you.

[00:21:45] So it really depends on where the dog is at for dogs who absolutely a poor putting anything in their mouth you might start with like a ride stick or something you know something that they would chew so that it's kind of flavorfully kind of want to put it in their mouth.

[00:21:59] And you can get that behavior that way so it really does depend on you're kind of meeting your dog where they're at and starting your shaping journey from there do ever pre plan these steps.

[00:22:11] So if you're trying to train something specific do you think about that session a little bit ahead of time or do you let things kind of flow and just see what happens.

[00:22:21] I think there's sometimes I lie and bed at night thinking like I'd love to teach this figure and then there's other times I go into a training session and I'm like show me something I don't know what we're going to do today but show me what you feel like doing and then we create a behavior from there so I think I I go from both ends.

[00:22:40] I can't do right.

[00:22:42] Replan everything yeah and then other days it's like he gets to decide.

[00:22:47] And when you're letting the dog or the animal decide what is your method for that are you marking for any novel behavior until you like something or do you have any special technique for that.

[00:23:01] Yeah so usually if I'm letting the animal decide I'm going to start I mean obviously I'm not going to retrain something that they already know so it might incorporate something that they know but like for my bird for example I'm teaching her to hold something with her hand instead of a beak.

[00:23:17] I thought it'd be cute to like teacher hold a pen or something that's I can live a hand so she already knows yeah so she already knows I'd pick up something with her beak.

[00:23:26] So she picks it up with her beak and she's like why is that not working they usually works and then she kind of starts to investigate well what is this thing and as soon as she puts her little hand open to kind of investigate it further I mark that and so we start to build and shape that behavior from there.

[00:23:43] So it really usually does incorporate some novel behavior but it does usually incorporate something that they already knew and we kind of start from there.

[00:23:53] And you're not telling the animal they're wrong if they're doing something that is not exactly what you're looking for exactly now do you ever if they have a behavior that it's very self reinforcing and they continue to repeat it do you ever use like a different behavior to kind of get them off of that or redirect or help them out like a little little bit.

[00:24:12] So I think one of the hints that I give a lot is that I tend to laugh at them because I think it's funny when they keep trying something that's not working and it kind of becomes again it's sort of like a game of charades and it's kind of like a hot and cold it's like you're getting warmer you're getting warmer and when you laugh it's like i'm really cold i'm really off there.

[00:24:34] So that's kind of what I've done that I never really realized but as I started becoming more and more involved as a professional trainer I started relating to that become a hint for them to know okay try something else i'm totally off.

[00:24:51] But another thing I like to do is change locations so if i'm like let's say we're like on the hardwood floor when i'm teaching Danny something he just keeps repeating a certain behavior all maybe move to a mat and we'll do that and sometimes just changing even a few feet from where you were kind of just re-orients their mind a little and gets them out of that being stuck off or in the same thing and even your changing positioning.

[00:25:18] Changing just the space a tiny bit can really help them start offering something different now why would you say shaping works so well what is it about shaping that just feels so magical that it works so well.

[00:25:32] Well i think part of it is that they're really thinking for themselves i think sometimes when we're luring they get so stuck on zone on food and they're just like looking looking looking they're not even thinking about what their body is doing.

[00:25:46] So with shaping they're really able to really think about i just moved my left back foot and that's what got me the reinforcement you know and it's it's really what helps dogs to be so smart.

[00:26:01] I think because they really have to think about it and figure out why this is working why they just got a treat and when they move their right foot it didn't and so you know that takes a lot of thought and I think that's what really helps.

[00:26:15] It works so well it's kind of like when you learn something new like whether it's through a podcast or through YouTube and yourself taught you really do learn it quite well because you had to like do all the research and learn it yourself and I think that sometimes when our brain really engages in something that's when we learn the best yeah that i like that it makes a lot of sense because you retain that information more when you've worked really hard to learn it.

[00:26:42] That's an interesting point like that yeah now what about the handler the trainer in this scenario so the dog is learning to learn but the handler is also learning some skills of creative thinking as well.

[00:26:56] Yeah absolutely and I think one of the best takeaways from shaping for a trainer is to really refine their skills in marking right at the perfect moment because timing is really everything and the more that you do it of course you're going to mess up.

[00:27:11] I still mess up and i've been training for years but you are going to get so much better at really marking it just the right times and that's going to help you as a trainer so much do you have any tips on how to improve your marking for somebody that's new to training.

[00:27:28] You know I think one of the things that you can do is kind of play a game with someone and I've done this with clients before two and it can be something as simple was like.

[00:27:38] You know okay we're going to play a game where i'm going to poke each finger and as soon as I poke your thumb you have to mark it and you're going for you can speed it up or slow it down you can do this for yourself you can kind of create a sort of game where like you know someone's doing something and then you practice marking it just the right time.

[00:27:57] And it really is kind of like a I mean I'd say you know we could play video games and get really good at it but it's kind of the same thing you know you're practicing your timing and so I think that's kind of the best way out of sight of training to be able to practice it before implementing it in real life for sure.

[00:28:15] Now do you find that you said you know of course you still make mistakes and everybody's going to make mistakes with timing but do you find that if the client makes a mistake it's easier for them to kind of not stress it and not think about that and just move on rather than really focusing on that mistake too much.

[00:28:35] Yeah and I think you know that's it's all a game and it's a game for you too and you know it's just like a game of charades again you're trying to get hints and give advice and you know it's not really about like being perfect all the time it's about having fun and you know even if you make a mistake within that training journey of that shaping to that behavior they're going to get it right like 10 times and you've reinforced it.

[00:29:03] So if you mess up once or twice it's not a big deal and you know they're going to be remembering all the times that they got it right so just keep practicing keep at it.

[00:29:13] Again I think consistency and patience are definitely the takeaways for shaping and having fun because that's that's the best part of it.

[00:29:22] It really isn't game between you and your dog yeah and I think it's important that listeners know those mistakes they don't hurt the dog this is a positive technique the dogs aren't letting that happen.

[00:29:32] Dogs aren't letting told they're wrong yeah so if you make a mistake with your timing then your dog just gets a free treat.

[00:29:38] So it's not so bad not so bad for them.

[00:29:42] Yeah there's no bad side of bugs here.

[00:29:45] Do you have a formula of how consistent you'd like to see each step so we've talked about shaping is breaking up that finished behavior into steps that as you said might not look like what you want it to look like when it's finished but eventually it will look like that.

[00:30:01] So for each step what percentage do you typically like to see of the animal being successful before you add another step or make it more difficult.

[00:30:11] Yeah so I think you know I'd like to say I'm really super good at this like percentile and being like really calculated in my mind but I think I just go into each session getting a feel for if the dog is getting it right or not and you know your dogs so you know they're getting frustrated we need to take a step back.

[00:30:30] Or today is an off day and they're just not remembering what we worked on yesterday and so really kind of feeling like is the dog having fun because that's at the end of the day the most important thing if your dog is having fun and he seems to be getting it right a majority of the time.

[00:30:47] He's having fun because he's being reinforced and so if he keeps getting it wrong he's not going to be having fun anymore.

[00:30:53] It's just frustrating for everyone so we want to make sure that the dog is having fun if for some reason they're just not offering it I would say maybe like seven or eight times out of 10 then maybe take a step back and go to the previous step and do that a couple of times so that they remember oh yeah that's right and you also let them get it right a couple of times

[00:31:14] and then try the next step again and you'll see the more that they offer it you can bounce back and forth don't be afraid to be like but we're on step five and we should continue to step six sometimes I bounce between four and five for a couple of days and then we get to six and seven much faster so I think it really depends on the dog the day how they're handling it that day how you're handling it that day

[00:31:40] and we all kind of start a fresh in the morning so just take it from there fresh every day and there's so much flexibility there like you said you can always go back a step so if you did maybe went a little too fast and then the animals a little frustrated well you can just go back a step so there's a lot of flexibility and I love that about this technique for sure.

[00:32:00] Yeah absolutely now some people might have the perception that shaping is only for advanced trainers or professional trainers that are really used to breaking up behaviors into these small steps so what can you tell us about that is that a myth?

[00:32:15] Yeah absolutely I think that even a novice trainer or somebody just as a pet owner for the first time wanting to train their dog anybody can do shaping and like you said you know the worst thing that's going to happen is your dog is going to get extra treats it's not bad if they mess up they're not going to learn a terrible behavior

[00:32:36] you're just reinforcing tiny increments towards a behavior that you want to see so kind of think about it in terms of like how can I break this behavior down like what does it involve and really think about it like for fetch what does fetching involve and what does that mean to me because for me it's different than other people like for other people it's like I want the dog to put the toy in my hand specifically.

[00:33:01] For me it's just come and drop it in my vicinity because the way I play with my dog is once he drops it he gets treats I zoomed to the end of the opposite end of the yard and he comes with me and then we do it again and he runs out to go get it when I tell him to go fetch so think about what the behavior is going to look like to you.

[00:33:19] And then kind of break it down what is that involve well first he has to know where the toys so looking in that directions important heading in that directions important because you can't get it if he doesn't head in that direction so really breaking it down that way and thinking about what does this behavior involve what limbs need to bend with you know behavior does the dog need to do.

[00:33:41] And then how do they need to engage with a prop or anything else and then you can kind of shape it that way and break it up in your mind into how that might look for you in terms of training session.

[00:33:53] Are there any additional tips that you want to make sure our listeners here anything else you want to share I think just start doing some shaping today and practice a little bit each day have some fun with it if you're already used to doing targeting or trying to do it.

[00:34:11] Or boring and you're used to those traditional methods you can still use them and incorporate shaping to so I think that's what's really flexible about positive reinforcement so so many different ways to get to a behavior.

[00:34:26] And you can kind of throw it in a little bit try it out see if you like it and remember to just have fun make sure your dog is having fun because at the end of the day that's what it's all about.

[00:34:37] Thank you so much Sarah this has been some valuable information and I want to share with our listeners that you can see Sarah's amazing videos on her social social media so videos of her animals doing different behaviors tricks and different things that are really cool to watch.

[00:34:55] So all of those links will be right there with this podcast so you can click on over and visit Sarah's social media she also has some courses that she is involved with so those will be posted as well.

[00:35:08] So those links will be there but I want to allow you to go ahead and share them as well so where is the best place to find you.

[00:35:16] Yeah so I'm most active on Instagram you can find me at Sarah and side kicks and that's my handle it's Sarah with an HSARH and then my business page is home H O M E underscore schooled SC H O L E D underscore H O UND and that's my business Instagram and then from there you can also visit my website as well.

[00:35:43] And if you go to my personal Instagram my business Instagram is linked to that too so you can find me through there and I hope to see you there.

[00:35:51] And I believe Danny is on there as well we talked about Annie a little bit.

[00:35:55] Yeah it's Danny and Gracie are both frequently there and I do post stories I'm a lot more active on Instagram than I am on Facebook so definitely see us there.

[00:36:06] Well thank you again Sarah and to our listeners thank you so much for being here with us and exploring the exciting topic of shaping we hope you enjoyed this episode and we hope it inspired you to have some fun training with your dog.

[00:36:19] If you like this episode please share it please subscribe it helps us reach more pet parents with valuable information and with expert guests such as Sarah.

[00:36:30] Thanks again until next time thank you so much.

[00:36:36] Music