Dr.Ian Dunbar: Foundations Of Positive Reinforcement Dog Training | E26

[00:00:00] What we find is in the book I spent a lot of time comparing the effectiveness of different

[00:00:07] mat reward-based methods, but also of using aversive punishment.

[00:00:12] Because it's often billed as, oh it's a quick fix for red line dogs, difficult cases

[00:00:17] and what I proved was it's neither quick nor a fix.

[00:00:22] And when you compare it to lure reward training for dealing with these same problems pulling

[00:00:27] on leaves, jumping up, barking, lure reward training using a single word is far more effective

[00:00:36] because it conveys two pieces of information.

[00:00:39] Stop what you're doing and do this instead.

[00:00:48] Welcome to the Pet Care Report podcast by Pet Summits.

[00:00:52] Here's your dog training host, Melissa Vieira.

[00:00:55] Hello and welcome back to the Pet Care Report.

[00:00:58] I'm excited to be joined today by one of the leading voices in the world of dog training,

[00:01:03] Dr. Ian Dunbar.

[00:01:06] Dr. Dunbar's work has been influential for dog trainers everywhere.

[00:01:10] He is the founder of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers as well as the author to numerous

[00:01:16] best selling books.

[00:01:18] Today he joins us to talk about his latest book, Barking Up the Right Tree, as well as

[00:01:23] Lore Reward Training.

[00:01:26] So thank you so much, Dr. Ian Dunbar for joining us today.

[00:01:29] Can we get started by talking a little bit about Lore Reward Training and what that is?

[00:01:36] Certainly but first good see you again.

[00:01:38] It's been much too long.

[00:01:40] I agree.

[00:01:41] Thank you.

[00:01:42] Well, Loreward Training is...

[00:01:44] Oh boy.

[00:01:46] I mean there's half a dozen different reward based training techniques and some of them

[00:01:53] just observe and reward.

[00:01:57] Reward the whole thing like you wait for the doctor's sit or you wait for him to stop

[00:02:01] barking.

[00:02:02] So I used to call that all-enon reward training.

[00:02:05] Now we call it weight and reward or Joe Walton had a lovely name for it because the acronym

[00:02:12] it simply observe and reward.

[00:02:15] And of course, the acronym is SOAR which I really like and jealous about.

[00:02:20] For your reward, progressive steps of the behaviour like in shaping.

[00:02:27] Then we have order shaping which is just...

[00:02:30] It's automatic.

[00:02:31] You set it up and the dog trains themselves.

[00:02:33] So you know there's many different types but Lore Reward Training I love because it is

[00:02:39] designed to do two things.

[00:02:42] From the outset teach dogs ESL or English as a second language.

[00:02:48] So from the outset it puts the behaviours on Q.

[00:02:52] So when we're teaching sit, down, stand, come, heal, the dog is learning to do it on Q rather

[00:02:59] than the process of capturing the behaviour.

[00:03:03] Then we have to go through a more difficult process of putting the word on Q because we don't

[00:03:09] know when the dog's going to do it and of course for the association to be made to the

[00:03:15] request or the command as they used to call it depends on that coming first.

[00:03:20] Well, the beauty of reward training is we lure the behaviour we want.

[00:03:25] So we use a toy lure or a food lure.

[00:03:28] It's very convenient for first time doggy owners and so we say, Roversit then we lure

[00:03:36] it to sit with a piece of food.

[00:03:38] And with a piece of food you can lure pretty much anything you want the dog to do in

[00:03:43] basic manners, come sit like down or lower, sit up from the down, stand, heal, sit when

[00:03:53] you stop or walk by your side.

[00:03:55] So it's an ideal way to start for dog owners.

[00:04:01] The other wonderful thing about lure reward training which is unlike any other reward based

[00:04:07] technique that formalised into the process is phasing out your training tools notably

[00:04:16] food lures, that's in step one and then in step two we don't phase them out entirely but

[00:04:22] we reduce the number because so many people use much too much food so you're devaluing

[00:04:29] it, it's reinforcing value.

[00:04:31] So we really thin out food rewards and make room for much more powerful rewards like life

[00:04:38] rewards, go sniff, go play or interactic games with people, fetch, tarp, hiding seek.

[00:04:50] And then my favourite rewards are what most people call behaviour problems.

[00:04:56] Well I think if we put them on cue like speak, well then we can yo-yo speak and shush

[00:05:03] and watch the reward for shushing you tell him speak again or jazz up settle down, what's

[00:05:10] the reward for settling down?

[00:05:11] You tell him to jazz up again.

[00:05:13] So here we really meet the dog more than half way because we let them be a dog just

[00:05:19] on our terms, we just teach them fetch what or when to bark, when to stop barking.

[00:05:29] So we basically let them know when are the most appropriate times to be a dog because

[00:05:34] sometimes I'm really inappropriate like peeing or barking or acting the fool but when

[00:05:44] we have them on cue we can choose times to have a barkathon or a crazy session, you know

[00:05:50] or to fetch something or obviously to go pee on cue.

[00:05:53] Well now you're empty so now we can play with the dog inside because you're playing

[00:05:57] with an empty dog.

[00:05:59] So I love low reward training because it's quick, it's the quickest way bar none to get

[00:06:06] behaviors on cue and teach the dog's our language, ESL, you know English is a second

[00:06:12] language so we can give very clear instructions now prior to task.

[00:06:18] The dog knows what we want it to do but more importantly we can give instructive guidance

[00:06:26] when dogs go off the straight and narrow and so what it means is and this is actually

[00:06:32] the jewel in the crown of the whole book that when you use verbal guidance, when dogs

[00:06:41] you know bark or pull on leash or whatever the jump are, whatever they're doing that's

[00:06:45] annoying the owner, you just calmly use your voice, you don't have to raise it you just

[00:06:50] say Rover sit, Rover shush.

[00:06:55] What we find is in the book I spent a lot of time comparing the effectiveness of different

[00:07:02] mat reward based methods but also of using aversive punishment because it's often build is oh it's

[00:07:09] a quick fix, you know for red line dogs, difficult cases and what I proved was it's neither

[00:07:15] quick nor a fix.

[00:07:17] And when you compare it to low reward training for dealing with the same problems pulling

[00:07:22] on leash jumping up barking, low reward training using a single word is far more effective because

[00:07:31] it conveys two pieces of information, stop what you're doing and do this instead.

[00:07:39] You know and so it changes the whole relationship that now people aren't being forced to do

[00:07:46] what they obviously know is wrong to frighten or hurt their dog and poof we get rid of aversive

[00:07:54] punishment well aversive stimuli because if they don't work we can't call them punishments

[00:07:59] can we because they're defined by their effect on behavior and if it doesn't have the

[00:08:04] intended effect then it cannot by definition be defined as a punishment.

[00:08:10] Can we break this up a little bit for somebody who might not have any experience training

[00:08:14] a dog maybe they're a new pet owner what actually is the lower and how do they determine

[00:08:21] what the reward is for their individual dog?

[00:08:24] Well I usually start you know everyone in puppy class off using food lures and since

[00:08:30] we have food lures using the food as a reward too but then we quickly have to phase out

[00:08:36] the food lure because if you're presenting food prior to the task prior to the behavior

[00:08:44] it's in great danger of becoming a bride.

[00:08:47] So when we're using the same thing food as a lure to teach the dog what we want it

[00:08:53] to do and they reward to teach the dog why do it you know to motivate the dog to want

[00:08:59] to do it.

[00:09:02] That is probably the biggest Achilles heel for a lot of people and most people who use

[00:09:07] food no matter what reward based technique they're using it's become a bride and now they're

[00:09:14] presenting it beforehand you know in their hand or whether they got a great big bait

[00:09:19] bag in front of them you know with half a pound of treats in it or whatever and that's

[00:09:25] very different.

[00:09:27] And so I get rid of the food lure very quickly because we teach hand signals you say

[00:09:34] it's a two step process learning the meaning of the verbal cue first they learn hand signals

[00:09:40] which is so easy for dogs.

[00:09:43] So food in our hand if we go sit down after about six trials with a border collie we just

[00:09:51] go rover and it sits because hand signals is one of the dog's languages you know body

[00:09:58] language and they pick it up so quickly.

[00:10:01] So then we have no food in their hands so now we're going rover sit rover down rover roll

[00:10:10] over you know rover shush and so it's very extremely easy though to phase out food as a reward

[00:10:22] and you must not phase out foods are award because it's nice giving I like giving the

[00:10:27] odd treat to a dog just for being there.

[00:10:29] Well I say just for being there that's the most important thing isn't it?

[00:10:34] They hit water still and they're lined by a side or looking at us or whatever they're

[00:10:39] doing I don't mind I'd rather be with a dog than without the dog so I'd rather have a dog

[00:10:44] that's misbehaving than one that's die you know and that happens much too soon of course

[00:10:50] is another part of my book.

[00:10:53] So the lure though we can another way to do it is we can replace it with a toy like a

[00:10:58] tug toy or tennis ball so I like a small tug tennis ball so we say rover sit and the dog

[00:11:07] would do anything for a tennis ball anything so then we can say good dog praise as a reward

[00:11:14] or give a food reward and we won't get this danger that the food will become a bride because

[00:11:21] the food only comes after the behavior and I like to hide it I mean I'll hide it all

[00:11:27] over the house on the mantel piece on shells in books you know behind a pillow so I've

[00:11:33] washed my hands no food on me I back up you know Fini come here and when she comes good dog

[00:11:40] and I've reached for the mantel piece and give her a food reward.

[00:11:43] I mean once I even told this story in the book as well I went down to the park before

[00:11:48] her walk and I hid treats in the tree so she knows I have no food but she gave me a really

[00:11:55] nice recall quick sit lots of attention so I say oh Fidi so good and I reached up to

[00:12:02] the tree branch and gave her a liver tree a freeze-tried liver tree I mean it blew a cotton

[00:12:09] pick in mind right because they're not great because then they look at you like how did you

[00:12:13] know that was there right it's a huge thing about rewards that to the dog it should appear

[00:12:20] that they come by magic if they've been promised as in the contract with bribing if you'll

[00:12:27] only sit and look at me I'll give you food well the dog may do it now but it doesn't mean to say

[00:12:34] he'll do it in the future and so they may be reliable I say may because sometimes they're not

[00:12:42] but the effect is not permanent whereas when you're conditioning with a food reward when used

[00:12:49] appropriately it increases the frequency of the immediately preceding behavior such that it's

[00:12:56] more likely to occur in the future so that's a major part of the definition of reward it's changing

[00:13:03] future behavior in terms of the dog's inclination to do what you ask the dog's motivation if you like

[00:13:11] and what kinds of things can be trained with a lore that people might not realize I mean all the

[00:13:19] any behavior that we want for basic manners I would just lure reward train it the one exception is

[00:13:28] if I get to the owner too late and the food has already become a bribe so then I switch to wait

[00:13:35] and reward training and actually I'm just I'm just watching my videos were really revamping

[00:13:41] down by academy.com so I'm watching videos filmed in the 80s the 90s the early 2000s and the last one

[00:13:50] I watched I thought wow this is such a great video because the way I explain it and these are all

[00:13:57] adult dogs and a lot of them are hopeless they've totally been brived and you see the owner even with

[00:14:04] sort of medium trained dogs they've got food and they're going like this like they're trying to get

[00:14:08] the food to get the dogs chin up to look at them you know and it's a total bribe so I say forget

[00:14:16] that we're just going to watch the dog and we're only going to reward it when it does something we like

[00:14:23] now for me the number one good behavior is no bad behavior or good and bad are not the right words

[00:14:31] but say desirable undesirable because I say to people praise your dog praise your dog and they say

[00:14:37] why he's not doing anything I say precisely he's not barking he's not growling he's not jumping up

[00:14:44] he's not chasing his tail he's not humping the cat he's just mining his own business so be a part of

[00:14:50] that business and say good dog and so if we look at the old acronym lemma after writing my book you

[00:15:00] know that means least invasive minimally aversive first I would say no non-aversive you know I'm showing

[00:15:10] that basic reward training is more effective than any aversive stimulus certainly in aversive

[00:15:17] stimulus will inhibit behavior but is that what we want we want to inhibit the dog from being a dog

[00:15:23] or acting like a dog no we want to teach him how to act like a dog when living with people

[00:15:31] and there's times when it's appropriate the situations when it's appropriate or not you know where

[00:15:36] to pee what to chew when to pee when to bark for how long to bark and but the least invasive part

[00:15:46] I don't know why they ever came up with that I mean what sort of training are you doing if you

[00:15:51] want it to be least invasive I want it to be totally invasive a non aversive I want Tina not lemma

[00:15:59] I want to be absolutely inside the dog's brain to the same extent I want the dog in my brain

[00:16:07] I want to mind meld like on Star Trek you know I'm not doing anything nasty like this use of the word

[00:16:15] invasive is very very negative and so you know I want to when the dog's just mind his own business

[00:16:23] I want to be a part of that and let him know I'm really happy with you now because you're lying down

[00:16:29] your daydreaming it makes me happy but hey I'm coming into your day dreams now hey this is Ian

[00:16:36] this is daddy that is here you know and so it's I think we really I mean dog training

[00:16:44] absolute you need some makeover now it's just it's gone in the wrong direction I don't know what's

[00:16:51] happened since since 2004 I mean the 80s and 90s and the first half of the century it was brilliant

[00:17:01] so I'm pulling out all these videos of this is how we did adult classes come in let them off leash

[00:17:08] why because they've been socialized you can't do that now you've got growly dogs barky dogs dogs

[00:17:15] out of control and so all this adult dog training I did back then and all the games we played

[00:17:22] in the canine games you know we would have 72 dogs adult dogs and these are dog owners dogs

[00:17:30] they aren't trainers dogs I would only allow one trainer per team because they grew in the whole

[00:17:36] thing they get too competitive these are dog owners with their dogs off leash we had malamutes we

[00:17:43] had I remember once we had four bulls you know there was seven in the workshop but four were playing

[00:17:50] in the games I mean these are enormous dogs but they were so friendly because as a breed that's

[00:17:55] so easy to socialize but people don't socialize them now you know in England they're banning the

[00:18:01] latest breed ban was these extra large pit bulls just happened last month I think what is up

[00:18:08] with you you stupid dog professions you whether you're a breeder or a veterinarian or pet store

[00:18:15] person or humane society you should be telling everyone the most important variable is whether it

[00:18:21] was socialized or not prior to eight weeks of age or three months of age and then you can train

[00:18:29] them anytime in your life and you don't have to deal with fear we wouldn't need fear free because the

[00:18:35] dogs aren't afraid of people now you can act like a person you can do your job as a vet you know

[00:18:41] because the dogs kind of cool with it one thing that you did mention that I think ties really

[00:18:47] nicely into the lower reward training is the games so of course you did the K9 games which we

[00:18:54] can certainly talk a little bit more about that but I just I think games in general and just the way

[00:18:59] lower reward training is a little bit lighter it's really I mean the technique is you can teach pet

[00:19:05] owners who have no experience so it's just kind of that light and fun and I think that ties nicely

[00:19:11] into games and you were talking a little bit about that would you agree with that that is one of the

[00:19:16] reasons and that that is effective well of course you know playing games is fun but aside from the fun

[00:19:24] factor there's two very important things about tricks and games one is the most probably about

[00:19:32] six of the first 10 tricks we teach a dog like you know high five shake hands roll over play dead

[00:19:41] all friendly appeasement gestures so you know somebody said oh you're just teaching a stupid trick

[00:19:47] yeah what I'm actually doing is asking for the dog to act friendly on cue so that when I'm walking

[00:19:54] my dog I can put this other owner and dog at ease coming towards me because you see straight away

[00:20:01] there's owner they see my you know I've always had big dogs apart from Hugo who was a French bulldog

[00:20:07] you know malamutes and um you know american bulldogs and stuff like that and yeah if you don't

[00:20:15] know them that can be a little off-putting and as soon as you show fear your dog will catch it

[00:20:21] so now your dog's getting a little reactive well now my dog looks at you and that dog totally

[00:20:26] losing it so my dog gets a little scared so I have to calm him down and the way I do it is I take

[00:20:32] a step back and I say you know come here just one step come here sit watch and so now what the

[00:20:40] other dog and owner see is my dogs rear end wagging and if they're really upset I with Phoenix I would

[00:20:48] say be a bear and she would do this you know and they laugh and instantly their dogs now relieved

[00:20:56] and so now my dogs are thank goodness you know they're friendly because they were freaking out man

[00:21:01] I don't know what I was gonna meet so this is a means for owners to make it easier on their own dog

[00:21:08] when walking because they can put other dogs at ease rather than just blaming the other dog oh

[00:21:14] this owner you know stupid no control over a dog shouldn't be walking it and the dog it should

[00:21:20] be muscled instead of saying that they see a dog now an owner who's laughing and skipping along

[00:21:26] the road or walking jauntily and that dog is all wacky butt and stuff so that really helps

[00:21:36] the other reason for teaching games it accelerates training ridiculously I mean in the book I mean

[00:21:44] a lot of people are saying why are you caring about speed and ease well I look at three I take it

[00:21:52] if we are talking training of course it's fun I don't even get into this humane issue you know

[00:21:58] what I do is fun well it's fun not humane I think it is I have fun with dogs I'm mess around

[00:22:07] so I when I look at different training techniques where the different reward techniques or using

[00:22:13] aversive stimuli I want to ask did it work if it did well because it didn't work you can't say

[00:22:22] you're a dog trainer and you can't say you're using aversive punishment by definition it's just

[00:22:28] diverse if it's not a punishment you know if it doesn't have the intended effect on behavior so

[00:22:34] first is it effective second how quickly is it effective and then how easy was it for the owners

[00:22:44] so why do does training have to be quick and easy right obvious why it has to be effective otherwise

[00:22:50] it's not training and we're not having a discussion about training we're arguing about the personality

[00:22:56] of this trainer who you don't like and you say they're horrible they're doing horrible things

[00:23:01] they're being inhumane no this is the discussion about whether you think something is inhumane or not

[00:23:07] and I'm a great I love those discussions and I have very interesting views on on what's humane

[00:23:14] and the biggest one is that the dog's quality of life through life is always improving

[00:23:22] rather than the quality of life is getting worse why because you didn't teach it to shush on

[00:23:28] cue and to pee on cue and so now he's peeing in the house and barking so he gets confined

[00:23:35] so you gain control run of the house and now you're closing it down until he's confined to the yard

[00:23:42] or to the basement or to one room when visitors come round because you didn't socialize him to

[00:23:48] love unfamiliar people and you don't walk him because now your dog's reactive because you don't know

[00:23:54] how to make other dogs left reactive so your dog's always in the world of reactive dogs

[00:24:00] so of course your dog gets reactive so we close down now it's freedom and its quality of life

[00:24:07] gets worse and worse and I think that's really cruel I think that's really inhumane or then you send

[00:24:14] it to a shelter you see it goes from the yard to the basement to a shelter often but training I assume

[00:24:24] it's fun and if it's not then you've got in the look in the mirror and light nothing bright

[00:24:29] enough but I look at is it effective obviously is it quick is it easy if it's not easy it's usually

[00:24:37] beyond the means of most new dog owners out there so like shaping is a very complicated reward

[00:24:46] based training technique it needs a lot of experience a lot of expertise and there's barely half a

[00:24:52] dozen people on the planet as good as Bob Bailey I'm sorry man he's the king and I know a number

[00:25:00] of people who are shaping a fish you know those who are probably as good at if not better than

[00:25:09] bulb now because they're much younger when you get above my age you lose a lot of your chops

[00:25:16] than your timing and stuff so it's got to be simple okay but then it's got to be quick why

[00:25:24] otherwise owners may not put in enough time you know they used to say oh detrain you've got

[00:25:30] to be consistent and you got to put in the time and I say no you don't you don't have to put in

[00:25:37] the time if you lure reward train it's so quick I mean we start off in the very first exercise come here

[00:25:45] sit down sit up stand down stand up that's seven different behaviors on our very first trial and

[00:25:54] we work from there we're teaching so much in in the first class because the you have to wow the

[00:26:00] owner like wow this class is incredible man I needed this four weeks ago well they should have

[00:26:06] gone to a zoom kindergarten to us is then go you know to see what we do that has to be quick

[00:26:13] and you don't have to be consistent this is a biggie it like all this you know whenever you see a

[00:26:19] trainer on the radio you know it's time to the second then the host would say well 10 seconds left

[00:26:25] training one word or training three words and the first word out of the trainer's mouth was always

[00:26:31] consistency well only if you're using aversive stimuli you have to be consistent otherwise the dog

[00:26:40] won't learn what you want but you'll learn when you can't punish him you know home alone

[00:26:46] problems or off leash problems no with reward training you shouldn't be consistent so why are we

[00:26:54] talking about all of these reinforcement schedules that require consistency and even if we had

[00:27:02] you know I wouldn't even talk about continuous schedules or fixed schedules they just don't exist

[00:27:08] in in my training routine ah I like the variable schedules problem is people can't compute them

[00:27:16] because they're pre-computed you know it's very difficult to be totally random so I come up with

[00:27:22] you know when using rewards well try to be as random as possible which is impossible

[00:27:28] because humans can't generate random numbers but I'll tell you what right before you reward

[00:27:34] have a sort of a veto you know like that was worth a rupinate wasn't wow you have suddenly magnified

[00:27:44] the reinforcing value of that reward because you the dog now can't predict whether it's coming or not

[00:27:50] it's magical without of the tree and when you add that magical component I call it you have like an

[00:27:58] ineffable veto like I think I'm gonna reward I haven't given a reward for a long time but uh

[00:28:04] no it wasn't really good enough this deliberation like you're a judge on America's Got Talent

[00:28:11] really gets the dog cute in like am I going to get a reward the hand went in the pocket oh my

[00:28:16] word it came out without a food reward you he's gonna have so much more intention and engagement

[00:28:22] going on and then all of a sudden you'll throw a behavior at you which you in an eye blink because

[00:28:28] we're human we're not a computer in the laboratory experiment we can say that was just

[00:28:34] priceless it was fantastic and this how I reward the dog with adjectives I like to use three new

[00:28:41] adjectives I've never used today with the reward and I linger over them like you are the best dog

[00:28:49] in the entire world that's worth 10 trees but I don't have 10 so I'm gonna give you one

[00:28:56] but it's worth 10 you know we did training has lost its voice come on very few people give instructions

[00:29:03] beforehand that's why we lure reward train so I can speak to my dog in a sentence

[00:29:10] Fini come here sit take this find Jamie please and so the dog runs off round the house out to

[00:29:19] the garden and sits in front of Jamie to deliver we used to call it malamute male the whole point

[00:29:24] of reaching words is so we can give an instruction in a sentence but the big disaster that's only

[00:29:32] happened in the last two decades we've lost praise I mean for some people it's reduced to a food

[00:29:39] tree to other people too just to click and a food tree this is insanity when you think this is

[00:29:48] my best friend this is my dog and I want to tell him how good he is and how

[00:29:55] I'm looking after dog at the moment because the owners are in hospital having a baby

[00:30:00] and they have to go back to hospital so I woke up feeling three days ago so depressed I can't

[00:30:07] I'm working so hard at the moment you know and I think oh god I've got another day at this I've

[00:30:12] got to get this right at you know our website and then I thought oh I got a war boomy

[00:30:19] and I jumped out of bed I didn't even take a shower I put clothes on and I went out

[00:30:24] and I went and got boomy who was just wiggling I mean this is a three-in-jindo for goodness sake

[00:30:29] they never show emotion and the dog can't contain himself and because he's had a 12-hour break

[00:30:36] you know I don't want him to wiggle so much he's dripping urine places I said come on

[00:30:42] to get outside quickly put on the leash and off we went I said go pee boomy did an enormous

[00:30:46] long pee and then I said boomy I gotta tell you thank you I feel so different about my day

[00:30:54] all because I saw your wingels you know and I I don't expect him to understand what I'm saying

[00:31:01] but he gets the emotion and the tone but it's gone from training so many trainers are like

[00:31:09] right yes treat it drives me crazy shows them emotion to the dog you know well just in the last

[00:31:19] 30 minutes you've mentioned toys treats praise hiding food different ways of feeding

[00:31:26] so there's just so many options and so much unpredictability there and it keeps the dogs really

[00:31:32] interested you know what though I didn't finish what I said I said there's two great reasons to

[00:31:37] teach tricks one they're friendly appeasement yes as the other one is here's a great trick

[00:31:42] so puppy class right is they right um for the week uh next week we're going to have a competition

[00:31:49] the winner will win this ribbon okay I show them a little ribbon and that blue with gold writing

[00:31:56] on it said for the dog that can balance a piece of kibble on his nose for the longest

[00:32:03] they come back and winner once I remember it's a little boy two minutes and so many seconds I mean

[00:32:11] that's pretty nice well pretty damn good so I said is your ribbon and he beat his dad which made me

[00:32:17] happy too I said you read to the class what it says on the ribbon and the little boy he's about nine

[00:32:24] he says yeah he says serious puppy training longest sit stay if remember I said right homework

[00:32:32] for the week is stays no one would do anything but you'd play a stupid trick or a game and they'll

[00:32:41] do anything to win a little ribbon but they've now got a two-minute sit stay that's the reason for

[00:32:48] tricks and games in training it just it goes to a different level that come into class to have fun

[00:32:56] and they leave class with a different dog after just 60 minutes or 55 minutes a different dog because

[00:33:04] he learns a much in class because now they're integrating teaching and training into living with

[00:33:10] the dog because they want to do the tricks in class I love them I love them every time I tell them

[00:33:16] about that and all the other tricks I do you know I ask them to do I just grin because I know no

[00:33:24] amount of explaining and pleading would get them to do their homework they just don't do it well

[00:33:30] I also like you talked about how quick you can train new behaviors with the law reward method

[00:33:36] and that is important for people now more than ever to be able to see those results really quickly

[00:33:41] like you said in one class their training sit down their training multiple things so quickly

[00:33:46] and that keeps them motivated as well yeah what I mean this is where I should say then then what

[00:33:52] is the biggest pro of shaping or click a training most people call it you see you can only lure

[00:33:58] behaviors that are in the dog's normal behavior repertoire and you know like stand on his

[00:34:06] hind legs or stand on his high front legs to pee and that k-punting dogs do that so you only

[00:34:15] working with all the behaviors gross movements of the body and facial expressions and stuff like

[00:34:21] that so it's very easy to lure those but if the behavior does not exist in the repertoire like say

[00:34:32] you want a dog to pirouette on its hind legs backwards you've got to shape it right or the reason

[00:34:40] I promoted shaping so heavily at the beginning which because the very first time that flickers were

[00:34:47] used to train dogs in a workshop um Kathleen Chin put on the workshop and no one signed up

[00:34:54] just dog trainer thought what what is this silly technique so I said well let me advertise it because

[00:35:03] we had massive databases back then and I said hey here's a workshop um a quick and fun way

[00:35:10] to teach non retrieving dogs to retrieve off leash no fear no pain and that's why I pushed it because

[00:35:19] the force retrieved was not occasional it was dislaught yeah in the kennel obedience clubs

[00:35:28] and in working club it was default and it was excruciatingly wrong and this is when obedience probably a

[00:35:36] lot of the participants were competitive obedience students I'm guessing yeah but they usually

[00:35:42] they caught on very quickly as did Schutzen was the first working dog activity um because lure reward

[00:35:51] training meant points it meant reliability you see because when if you're teaching a vocabulary and

[00:36:00] you're queuing behaviors and responses if you like with words it's very easy now to check for

[00:36:08] reliability you see so for example um I have an index called the response reliability percentage

[00:36:17] so it's a percentage of the likelihood if you said sit that the dog would sit so it's based on

[00:36:25] how many times did the dog sit when asked and how many commands or hand signals did you have to use

[00:36:33] so it works out a percentage so now you can test and and watch standard for most dogs let's say a

[00:36:39] pretty good trained dog and um from watching a lot of videos of trainers um over the last two weeks

[00:36:48] um for a lot of trainers um the best reliability is in the kitchen at meal time

[00:36:55] let's say 50 60 70 percent it's not 100 it's not even 95 um which is what it really should be if you're

[00:37:04] a trainer but then we move into the living room it drops about 10 percentage points if you go out to

[00:37:11] your yard you drop 25 percentage points if you go onto the street with the dog on leash

[00:37:20] you drop about 10 15 points if you're off leash in a dog park well for a lot of people it's zeroed out

[00:37:28] so now we have an index which is easy to check because all the behaviors are queued we know what

[00:37:34] the reliability is before we let the dog off leash in a dog park or on a trail or off leash walking

[00:37:42] from um house to the car very common it's one of the most common situations for dogs to be run over

[00:37:49] oh but he never did that well he did today the cat was across the street or squirrel and your dog went

[00:37:55] and number one you didn't say anything you just screamed

[00:37:59] well that would make me run from you faster if I were the dog but you didn't say sit

[00:38:04] but I mean if you said sit have you proved it there yeah I was watching videos it's in um

[00:38:11] we filmed it on August 2008 i remember it's one of my favorite films

[00:38:17] Jamie was the cameraman and he produced such footage of me proofing doom at the end of the driveway

[00:38:24] and it's um he did i do frighten a little at the end but it's a setup once I've trained him he must not

[00:38:33] cross this line without sitting beforehand me giving the instruction let's go and then immediately

[00:38:40] sitting when you're on the sidewalk it's three cues before you cross this line so I do this and

[00:38:48] you know walking quickly to the boundary and then going sit really quickly like this like it's an

[00:38:54] emergency then I set him up i just walked really quickly straight out into the street well

[00:39:02] i know he's gonna follow and as soon as he puts one paw over that line he goes back back back back

[00:39:10] sits oh my god and i imagine he's been hit by a car and smashed the smithereens

[00:39:15] and it comes out in my voice oh my god oh gee on the dog side what have it done

[00:39:21] I say it's okay that's okay you're sitting good dog oh good dog then we go back do it again

[00:39:28] i ran he sits my arms pulled backwards out of socket he won't cross that line so yeah once I made

[00:39:34] a little scary but that's proofing my training and we think that it actually saved Hugo's life once

[00:39:42] when we had visitors and they left the front gate open and when they came in they didn't shut

[00:39:51] the front door and i guess Hugo went out to pee then they shut oh front door's open and shut it

[00:39:57] so now he's outside in the courtyard and all the funds indoors well he hears the fun in the kitchen

[00:40:06] so he comes around to the back door there's an 18 inch strip not a side wall but it's not the street

[00:40:12] it's a curb where you can go from front door to the driveway at the back and there he was ring

[00:40:19] um you know poochie bells at the back door and so you know it's yeah it can be taught so quickly

[00:40:27] with lure reward training and it and it was the flavor of the month all through the eight is

[00:40:31] nine tirs and then it gradually got replaced by other techniques which take forever and are very

[00:40:39] complicated well i think one of the fascinating things about your work of course there are many

[00:40:44] fascinating needing things but one of those is that you do test everything so you say it's effective

[00:40:51] but you're not just saying that you actually test the dogs and you and and you have all the like

[00:40:57] interviewers i've had um you and jamey know that more than most because you're actually now testing

[00:41:04] response for liability percentages and as soon as you learn to do that it's amazing what things will

[00:41:12] take your training and just obliterate it yeah you know stimuli that shouldn't even be scary for a dog

[00:41:19] for hugo it was an 18 inch stone elf in calisdoga he'd lost it man and this is a highly socialized

[00:41:29] dog but there's never any dog that is totally bomb proof never any person there'll always be

[00:41:37] things that spook it and at that point all the training the cortex doesn't work anymore

[00:41:43] the dog's working for some primordial level and he went crazy over this 18 inch elf

[00:41:51] we're saying hugo it's okay hugo sit hugo sit you didn't know what the words man

[00:41:56] and it took us about i don't know four five minutes i think and then we walked back and forth

[00:42:02] the elf and our hugo was back again with his train cortex so that's the neat thing about when

[00:42:09] you learn how to come up with this score which is so easy to interpret because it's a it's a

[00:42:17] combined percent a rather a percentage of combined comprehension and motivation so it's testing

[00:42:25] two things for certain that your dog understands what you want it to do but also how motivated is the

[00:42:32] dog to do it in this scenario like around squirrels or when he's humping another dog or what have you

[00:42:40] absolutely so yeah now is the time now to get these little research studies out there because you

[00:42:46] will be the first it'll be you and lady in england who's never done this kind of research on dog

[00:42:52] training before because it solves so many arguments you know like i find for each trainer

[00:43:00] there's a different training technique right there's as many training techniques as we have trained

[00:43:05] and they tend to disagree a lot or argue and if it comes to the notion of is this in humane it gets

[00:43:15] vitriolic on both sides and that shouldn't be that argument shouldn't exist within the profession

[00:43:22] where we're all trying to do the same thing which is teaching owners how to teach their dogs

[00:43:29] or even teaching dogs to compete with them we but this eliminates arguments because we say

[00:43:36] right here's another routine to do what i want you to do is to go sit stand down stand sit stand down

[00:43:44] stand i'm going to time you you got to train the dog to do that but i'm going to give you a

[00:43:50] percentage reliability for each separate response sit stand sit stand down stand down stand down

[00:43:59] stand okay so it's very different standing whether the dog sitting or lying down and sit is very

[00:44:06] different if the dog standing it's easy if it's lying down it's harder on big breeds well down

[00:44:13] is much harder from the stand to teach than from the sit a lot of people when they can't get a dog

[00:44:20] that's standing or walking to lie down they go oh uh down down oh sit down it's like you use all

[00:44:28] these commands where one word down you know would have worked and so now you know of arguments

[00:44:36] and what once the research starts to come out you're kind of making a statement this is what happened

[00:44:44] for better or worse this is what we did duplicate it and do better why then i'll listen to you

[00:44:52] if you can't do as well as we did then shut up because you've got nothing to say to me

[00:44:57] because i'm training dogs quicker and more effectively than you are so this levels the playing field

[00:45:03] now and we know it is someone has said a crazy training technique and that's oh there are some

[00:45:10] really really crazy ones out there well i think how on earth did you think that up i mean

[00:45:18] it's hard enough how did they make training so boring and so horrible well you've done just for

[00:45:25] pet owners training their own dogs it's important of course for trainers it's really important for us

[00:45:30] to be testing what we're doing but pet owners they can test does do their cues work if they test a

[00:45:36] verbal or a signal is it actually working or is the dog just watching a small movement or them

[00:45:43] reaching for a treat so i think that's a really cool aspect of it as well yeah and it becomes a game

[00:45:48] within the family and what you find is the little girl has the best reliability by far next it's

[00:45:56] a toss up between the little boy and mum last will be dad dad will say more down commands i mean

[00:46:04] like nothing game you know bang that's their homework and then i said right we're i called two

[00:46:11] people out was a man the little girl i said first up to down and the man's going down down

[00:46:17] down down down and the girl goes bang one bullet you know prone down supine down they're both

[00:46:25] down but the little girl gets the dog down instantly and she's giggling the man's repeating the command

[00:46:33] and is not happy you know because i put him on stage and so as soon as we quantify

[00:46:41] or we test it now becomes friendly competition within the family and for yourself

[00:46:48] now it's a training becomes like golf i mean why do you think golf is so seductive because it's

[00:46:53] impossible to conquer but once you know oh wow i'm par three on that whole i've never done that before

[00:47:02] you know and but then in your par four the next time you do it it's what keeps us going

[00:47:08] that we want to get that elusive perfect score and they do exist but only on a very short test

[00:47:17] so for example an obedience competition you'll get people that very rarely in their life

[00:47:23] got a perfect 200 or and a mind got too perfect two hundreds back to back in Toronto

[00:47:32] and she's going in the ring with her third dog why she has a very good leech trainer

[00:47:38] and then she discovered luri war training she's unbeatable now just unbeatable

[00:47:44] so it's just it's fun and but people oh they get all weirded out by testing

[00:47:52] and i say look on it as yoga i just taken up yoga by the way for my shoulders and my balance

[00:47:58] and um i'm never going to perfect this i know this now this is an unsolvable task for me

[00:48:08] but i'm getting my balance back and my shoulders uh there's some exercise i can't do because of

[00:48:14] my shoulders but otherwise you know i get more mobility in them and what have you

[00:48:20] but it's unsolvable and dog training and goal for kind of like that if you test if you don't test

[00:48:26] dog training is just an annoyance to many people and that's a shame because they haven't as you

[00:48:32] say put the behavior on cue and i think before they test they have to perfect that

[00:48:38] lower reward training and that is one of the things that your new book talks about correct

[00:48:44] yeah we um i love the bits in it where so step one as you phase out the lure so now your dog is working

[00:48:53] he's reading your hand signals and your verbal cues um phase two is thinning down the food and using

[00:49:01] much better motivators games life rewards and all sorts of things praise i recite nonsense per

[00:49:09] treated dogs when they're healing nicely or i harmed because my singing is awful but stage three

[00:49:15] is now you are enforcing without force which this is a very interesting concept that you cue the dog

[00:49:26] number one most of the time i give an instruction like sit or come i don't really mean it

[00:49:32] is a suggestion only very few instances you really must do it because it's it's a safety thing

[00:49:41] or it's a competition thing or it's a show off that whatever you know um and this is very easy

[00:49:48] if you give the dog two names a nickname signals the neck word is a suggestion and i'm actually

[00:49:54] surprised how many times my dogs follow my suggestions i thought i didn't really want to come i

[00:50:00] just wanted you a bit closer you know but they come all the way up to me but if i really want

[00:50:07] them to do it i call them by a different name and a lot of parents do this they'll use a formal name

[00:50:12] with a child sadly compliance or non-compliance is followed by a smack or something no the interesting

[00:50:20] thing that i found out since the eighties i always thought you had to use a little volume so you

[00:50:28] would say rover sit rover sit or it would be you know huggie sit hugo luy sit but you don't you don't

[00:50:40] have to change your volume or intonation at all all that needs happen is if you use the formal name

[00:50:46] and say come or sit or down it has to happen and you keep repeating the command over and over which

[00:50:55] of course is wow breaking the old they'll never repeat the command that used to say or else your

[00:51:00] dog will learn this and that no it doesn't when you test it the dog learns the meaning of the must do

[00:51:06] command how do we know that because the number of times you say hugo luy sit decreases but all you've

[00:51:14] done is followed up calmly insistency you explain to the dog when i use your formal name you must sit

[00:51:22] and also if you make me repeat the command you have to repeat the entire exercise so again these are

[00:51:31] videos i was looking at me working with dune and dune sit and he didn't so i had to repeat it and go

[00:51:39] up to him and when he sits i say thank you then i take a step back say dune come dune sit good boy go play

[00:51:50] you see that it's so if the dog doesn't sit when you give a formal name he has to set the minimum

[00:51:54] twice now so all the things they said about repeating commands is just incorrect its silliness

[00:52:02] what are you gonna do if your dog is chasing a low flying seagull towards a cliff rover sit

[00:52:08] oh damn i mean it's ridiculous of course you repeat the command in emergency and i do it in learning

[00:52:16] too it's no biggie the dog is still learning and what came out of actually writing the book

[00:52:24] i couldn't verbalize this is what we have is progressive consciousness of comprehension

[00:52:32] so like a dog it's not like he knows it or he doesn't you can see a dog

[00:52:38] like the stages of knowing it like when you're teaching him to sit or distance commands

[00:52:44] he doesn't do it he doesn't sit up from the down or lie down from the stand but he makes a

[00:52:50] little movement like his subconscious is saying they want me to do something and i

[00:52:57] shouldn't know what he's saying there but not entirely we'd say in the same word is he does

[00:53:02] in the kitchen sit you know or when the dog can't see your face so it's wonderful getting videos of

[00:53:09] this then you can prove it to people that learning is a progressive process and then once you get

[00:53:15] up to 97% as far as you can get why well i was gonna say because dogs are human but of course they

[00:53:22] aren't like can i but humans are human and there's no human that's perfect because we get distracted

[00:53:29] we we have daydreams and mind wanders we forgot what we were doing and we make mistakes so when you

[00:53:37] really ruthlessly calculate or quantify response reliability 97.0 something percent is the max

[00:53:47] on a long-term test yeah the dog could do it right four or five times in a row but i like to test

[00:53:54] you know the minimum of 21 responses i always do three reps of calm sit down sit stand down stand

[00:54:02] something like that so that's 21 separate responses and that's where we see 100% and say puppy

[00:54:09] two classes but we don't see three tests of 100% and a rose they in temperament i mean i love

[00:54:18] teaching manners obedience most then solving behavior problems with words a single word solves

[00:54:25] every problem when you've taught it on cue but the temperament problems you're always trying to mend

[00:54:30] a broken dog and i find it upsetting you have so much value and so much information which is why

[00:54:37] i was excited for this book for a long time it was a long time coming to like your research that is

[00:54:45] like hope we're still working on them absolutely so for our listeners Ian's new book barking up

[00:54:53] the right tree is now available but i also want to go over where to find you so where is the best

[00:55:00] place to find your current work if you want to share those websites oh i'd websites they're all

[00:55:06] still up locally of course serious pub.com dogstar daily.com is still up and running although we don't

[00:55:15] add to it so much now but i'm going to revamp it i'm going to put a lot of puppy pantomimes there

[00:55:21] so puppy pantomime is there's one of them there it's called video contest so we gave them a title

[00:55:30] summer fun and we gave a massive prize a lot of money i mean bachelors how much it is so

[00:55:36] i won't we won't be offering prizes like that again but oh the top five winners for exceptional

[00:55:42] so puppy pantomime is it's a little story skit joke but the majority of the actors they must be

[00:55:51] the majority um our dogs and so it can be only a dog or you've got say five dogs but there's four

[00:56:00] people there as well so you must have a majority of dogs acting and then of course the big

[00:56:05] that massive website is dumber academy.com dumber academy.com and all of these links will be alongside

[00:56:14] the episode for anyone listening if you want to look for the link i really appreciate your time

[00:56:20] i normally ask at the end what is the number one tip but i don't want to ask you that because

[00:56:25] i just feel like you have so much value we can't boil it down to one tip unless you want to share

[00:56:30] i would boil it down to two because the things that upset me so much so number one

[00:56:38] prospective puppy owners must make absolutely certain that the breeder is socializing their

[00:56:44] pup to unfamiliar people don't worry they'll catch up on the dog dog stuff in first week in

[00:56:50] puppy class but not socializing to people is a life changer quality of life changer for your dog

[00:56:58] and for you it's just not much fun having a dog you can't walk or a dog you can't invite people

[00:57:05] over to your house without locking the dog up so that is huge and it's up to you and this is my

[00:57:12] ladies that actually i restarted this campaign we call it free pup books and um and the

[00:57:21] our goal is for anyone when they think about oh we'll get a puppy must download these two free

[00:57:26] books first so we know what to expect and everything's rank ordered in terms of urgency and

[00:57:32] important that's number one because not socializing it's crippling for dogs then it's just not fair

[00:57:40] number two make sure you read the pedigree and there shouldn't be a male dog on the pedigree going

[00:57:48] back three generations that's less than three years of age you can't judge a dog when it's three

[00:57:55] years old it could have died of cancer at five by which times say one west ministeral crafts

[00:58:01] and has sired oh 500 puppies which now may carry a gene that has a propensity for cancer and this

[00:58:11] is what is happening to pure bred dogs and now it's beginning to influence mixed breeds as well

[00:58:17] because of course mixed breeds most of them were descended from pure bred dogs at some time in

[00:58:23] their lineage or maybe yesterday if they met a cute golden on the street now we're going to have

[00:58:28] 50% golden puppies and so there's no point in them learning all the fun training if the dog

[00:58:36] wasn't socialized there's no point in socializing and doing all the fun training if your dog's

[00:58:43] gonna be dead at five or seven thank you so much for listening we hope this information was

[00:58:48] helpful it's always a pleasure talking thank you so much for being here thank you MJ and I apologize

[00:58:55] for not I for a few months now i've been meaning to give you a call and I haven't done it and I'm

[00:59:01] very remiss there but I have been so busy you know I this is the busiest year I've ever had in my

[00:59:09] life well you've been able to get a lot of work out there and a lot of value and I'm really excited

[00:59:14] about that of course I I have already read the book and I hope our listeners join me in that

[00:59:20] and enjoy this great information so until next time thanks so much for being here thank you

[00:59:25] for thinking of me i'm very flattered and thank you all out there can't see anyone I don't think

[00:59:31] anyone's out there at the moment but you will be in the future no doubt but then I won't be here

[00:59:36] so thank you for listening please spread the word about the two three pup books thank you

[00:59:42] until next time bye