Kathy Firsch: Beyond Appearance: Signs Your Dog Needs Grooming| E55

[00:00:00] Every single aspect of grooming is uncomfortable, invasive, weird. It's not something that a dog would normally have happen, let's say, in the wild. So I'm touching them in places that even you might not even touch. I'm putting things that vibrate on them and make noise. The blow dryers are loud. Maybe they don't like water. So my goal is to make the grooming process more comfortable.

[00:00:26] Welcome to the Pet Care Report podcast by Pet Summits. Here's your dog training host, Melissa Vieira.

[00:00:33] Hello and welcome back. On today's episode, we're going to talk about dog grooming. So how grooming relates to behavior and why it's important to pay attention to your dog's coat care. Here with me today is Kathy Firsch. Kathy has been grooming dogs for 12 years and her specialty is dogs with behavior.

[00:00:51] behavioral problems such as aggression, fear and anxiety. Kathy also specializes in working with dogs who are senior dogs or who have other special needs. Kathy has a number of certifications from a salon safe certification to breed certifications. She has experience in all dog breeds and she also has a passion for teaching dog grooming and helping other dog groomers succeed. Welcome, Kathy. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:20] Thank you for having me. So we're going to go right into the questions. And my first question for you is, can you talk a little bit about why grooming is important for dogs and how to recognize signs that a dog might need some grooming?

[00:01:34] So one of the first things that people mention when they're talking about, oh, my dog might need to be groomed is their toenails. It's probably one of the more important things to maintain. It can get out of hand very quickly. They start to chew their paws. You hear the little click clack across the apartment. Also buildup of eye boogers. If your dog has a lot of crust around their eyes, that can cause some health issues.

[00:02:00] And it's one of the early signs of maybe they need a tubby. And then their private areas. Not something that's very glamorous, but going to the bathroom with a fluffy dog, it can build up back there.

[00:02:13] And that could also be a sign that they definitely need to get in. Some people notice matting on their dogs. So if you're feeling kind of lumps or their fur feels kind of thick, that might be a warning sign that it might be time to call the groomer.

[00:02:25] Now, are there other signs that the dog might show behaviorally if they're starting to become uncomfortable due to maybe lack of grooming or they're just a little bit overdue for their grooming appointment?

[00:02:37] So some things that you might notice is if they're uncomfortable with you touching them. If they have severe matting, it's constantly pulling at the skin.

[00:02:44] So they might be showing an aversion to being touched or pat because it's pulling when you're handling them.

[00:02:51] If they're showing discomfort around their ears being touched, it could be a sign not only that they're dirty, but also they might have something more going on like an ear infection.

[00:03:01] They don't want you to touch their feet. It could mean that their nails are making their paws uncomfortable.

[00:03:05] When they get too long, it pushes their feet in a wrong and discomforting position.

[00:03:11] So think about if you let your toenails get really long and you try to stuff them in a tennis shoe and you're walking on it all day.

[00:03:16] You don't want anybody touching your feet after that. So if they're normally okay with you touching them, handling them in a certain way, and all of a sudden they're showing, I don't want you to pet me.

[00:03:25] Please don't touch my feet. That might be a sign that they're uncomfortable and it might be time to call the groomer.

[00:03:30] Now, when dogs are starting to show a little bit of an aversion to being handled and being touched, does that then make a difference when it is time to get groomed?

[00:03:39] So maybe they're a little bit overdue and the owner's noticing that, oh, they are becoming uncomfortable with being handled.

[00:03:46] So would that make the grooming process more difficult in your experience?

[00:03:51] Absolutely. If your hair is constantly pulling against your skin and now I'm trying to remove that from you, it's uncomfortable.

[00:03:58] Not only during, but sometimes even after when you take those mats off, it could cause the dog to itch in a certain area when they go home and it can cause skin irritations.

[00:04:09] Nails are super important, especially if you have a curly-toed dog like a French Bulldog or a pug.

[00:04:15] Their nails can curl right into their toe pads.

[00:04:18] So me trying to cut those nails can cause pain, even though I'm helping them.

[00:04:23] And that will create not only a negative experience for the dog, but a painful one.

[00:04:27] And just to talk a little bit more about if that does create a negative experience, how that might contribute to the dog's future grooming experiences and why that can pose a challenge.

[00:04:40] So every single aspect of grooming is uncomfortable, invasive, weird.

[00:04:45] It's not something that a dog would normally have happen, let's say, in the wild.

[00:04:50] So I'm touching them in places that even you might not even touch.

[00:04:53] I'm putting things that vibrate on them and make noise.

[00:04:55] The blow dryers are loud.

[00:04:56] Maybe they don't like water.

[00:04:58] So my goal is to make the grooming process more comfortable.

[00:05:02] And when they come in matted or in severe conditions, it's not going to be the best experience for them.

[00:05:08] So that means next time, even if you come in within four weeks and they have almost no hair, their expectation is they're going to be under the same pressures and pain and anxiety that they were the last time.

[00:05:19] So regular grooming helps not necessarily eliminate it, but desensitize the dog.

[00:05:24] So they understand that I'm going to be happy with them.

[00:05:28] I don't have to overbrush them or shave under really tight matting and cause them discomfort or hurt their toes when I'm trying to cut their nails.

[00:05:36] So the better experience that we can provide them, keeping them well maintained, the less anxious they're going to be and the happier they're going to be.

[00:05:43] My goal is that maybe they get excited when they see me.

[00:05:48] And I bet you do have a lot of them that do get excited to go to their grooming appointments.

[00:05:53] Definitely.

[00:05:55] Now, what is regular grooming in your opinion?

[00:05:59] So how often should an owner bring their dog to be groomed professionally?

[00:06:04] So it does depend on the breed of dog.

[00:06:06] Some dogs you can get away with leaving it a little bit longer than others.

[00:06:09] There's realistically, you could bathe your dog comfortably every three weeks at home.

[00:06:15] It's the natural life cycle of their cells.

[00:06:18] So they're shedding cells every 21 days.

[00:06:20] Some people are afraid to wash their dogs too often.

[00:06:22] But if you're using the right products and process, it is actually very beneficial for them.

[00:06:27] A husky or a Samoyed or big fluffies, I recommend once a month.

[00:06:31] You're helping keep their coat in check.

[00:06:33] They're not going to be too hot.

[00:06:34] They're not going to be too cold.

[00:06:35] Your house will thank you.

[00:06:36] And also it helps prevent matting because those types of dogs should not be shaved.

[00:06:41] So when you get into a situation where they're so far gone, you cannot brush it out.

[00:06:46] You could damage their coat permanently.

[00:06:48] We don't want that.

[00:06:50] Doodles and more like thicker coated long hair dogs.

[00:06:54] I usually try to get them in six to eight weeks.

[00:06:57] And it also depends on the haircut that you have.

[00:06:59] If you want that long fluffy doodle.

[00:07:01] I have some clients that come in every two weeks just to maintain those six inches of hair.

[00:07:06] If you want your dog short and you don't want to brush them at home and you don't want to bring them that often,

[00:07:10] you can let it go a little bit further.

[00:07:12] As long as you're bathing them in between, it will help keep them comfortable and getting their nails done often.

[00:07:17] Now, dogs that are having a little bit of anxiety about going to the grooming salon,

[00:07:23] do you get them on a specific schedule as well to help with the behavioral aspect?

[00:07:27] I do.

[00:07:28] The more often you can bring them, the better experience I feel like they have.

[00:07:32] Some people make the mistake of, oh, they really hate it.

[00:07:35] So we try to do it only twice a year.

[00:07:37] And that can be detrimental because they're not used to it.

[00:07:40] They don't know where they're going.

[00:07:42] And every single time it's mats, long toenails, and it's so much more work.

[00:07:48] If your dog is anxious, I always recommend nails once a month.

[00:07:51] So even if they don't need a haircut or a full bath, bring them in for their nails because they're seeing my face.

[00:07:57] They're coming into the salon.

[00:07:58] I'm handling them.

[00:08:00] And nail trims are actually a really good opportunity to build a rapport and comfort with a dog because it's in and out.

[00:08:06] It's five minutes most of the time.

[00:08:08] So they come in, a couple quick things happen, and then they're out the door.

[00:08:11] And it creates a positive like, oh, this wasn't that bad.

[00:08:14] I wasn't there for three hours because I was matted.

[00:08:17] And eventually it helps build that trust in, oh, when I go to this place, I get cookies.

[00:08:22] She pats me.

[00:08:24] She doesn't pull on my hair.

[00:08:25] I don't have to do a lot of things I don't like because the longer you go between grooms, the more work it is, the longer it's going to take me and the more stress it causes your dog.

[00:08:34] Now, speaking of nails, not to get too far off topic, but I do think this is super important to talk about because you mentioned nail trims regularly.

[00:08:41] Can you talk a little bit about how the nail grows and why not just the behavioral side of doing regular nail trims, but why it's important to keep up with the nails if you want your dog to have nice short nails?

[00:08:55] The way that the nails are structured is that there's a vein inside of them.

[00:08:59] So a lot of people, they always say as short as possible.

[00:09:02] I'm limited by the length of the vein in the dog's nails.

[00:09:06] As you know, if you have a dog, at some point they've probably been quick.

[00:09:10] The nail's bleeding.

[00:09:11] It doesn't feel good and it can obviously create a bad memory.

[00:09:16] But if you regularly trim, dremel, and cut your dog's nails, it will recede into the nail bed.

[00:09:25] So think about if you chew your fingernails, your nail bed gets shorter and shorter and shorter.

[00:09:29] It's the same principle with that vein.

[00:09:31] So the more often you cut it, the further back you're going to push it, the shorter I can cut those nails.

[00:09:35] And the dogs are going to be more comfortable because they walk on their toes.

[00:09:39] It's not like a cat where the nails go into the toe.

[00:09:43] They are walking on their nails essentially.

[00:09:45] So if they're even a little bit too long, it's putting pressure, especially with older dogs.

[00:09:50] Their toes are arthritic.

[00:09:51] It can cause a lot of pain just having a little bit of a length too much on the toenails.

[00:09:55] Do you have any suggestions on how pet owners can keep up with the nails at home?

[00:10:01] Is there anything that they can do other than trimming the nails?

[00:10:05] So of course not being expected to trim the nails.

[00:10:07] So I think the most important thing is to check them and handle your dog's feet.

[00:10:12] Because the more you're touching their feet, the more they're going to come in to me and go,

[00:10:16] well, mom touches my feet at home.

[00:10:18] So if this lady does it, it's not that weird.

[00:10:20] The length of the nails, especially their dew claws.

[00:10:23] And a lot of dogs have dew claws in the back, which people forget about.

[00:10:27] They don't walk on those nails.

[00:10:28] So they can get very long very quickly and they curl.

[00:10:32] So those are the ones that could cause a vet visit if it's pushing into the paw pad.

[00:10:35] So even just touching them and taking a look to see how long the nails are in between their grooming can help.

[00:10:42] Okay, these are getting kind of long.

[00:10:44] I need to bring them into the groomer now.

[00:10:45] And some owners might not be aware of the placement of their dog's dew claws either.

[00:10:50] If their dog has a lot of coat, sometimes they don't even know what that dew claw is and where it is

[00:10:56] and how to check it regularly.

[00:10:58] Absolutely.

[00:10:59] And do you see a lot of dogs that have dew claws on the back as well?

[00:11:03] I do.

[00:11:04] It wasn't as common, I think, when I first started.

[00:11:06] But I feel like a lot of dogs, specifically doodles, are coming in with either one or two dew claws in the backs.

[00:11:13] Especially when you have like Bernese Mountain dogs that are mixed with doodles

[00:11:18] and other dogs that have genetically those back toes like Great Pyrenees.

[00:11:23] Sometimes they only have one that grows in.

[00:11:25] So that's why knowing your dog's anatomy is super important.

[00:11:29] So when you get them as a puppy, look at, you know, how they're set up.

[00:11:33] Oh, you have one wiggly claw on the back of your right foot and letting your groomer know that

[00:11:38] because those are very easily nicked and it can be missed very easily as well.

[00:11:42] So we always check.

[00:11:44] I always check anatomy.

[00:11:45] I always check for those back two claws.

[00:11:46] But going back to maintaining your dog, if they come in and they're matted and it's thick hair covering it,

[00:11:53] we might not feel that.

[00:11:55] And that's why bringing them in before they get to that point is so important

[00:11:58] because it helps things like that and mistakes like that be prevented from happening.

[00:12:04] In addition to maintaining and checking the nails at home, how can owners, you did mention bathing at home is okay on schedule.

[00:12:13] How can owners check the coat just checking matting and combing and brushing at home?

[00:12:19] So if you're not one that regularly brushes and combs your dog, that's okay.

[00:12:23] Some people, they don't have time for it.

[00:12:25] And I usually recommend a shorter haircut in those instances.

[00:12:28] But even if you are not regularly brushing and combing your dog, periodically you should be running a brush and a comb through their coat

[00:12:36] because a lot of people will do the brushing but they skip the combing.

[00:12:39] And that's essential because that's when you know if there's really heavy tangles,

[00:12:44] especially when the mats form from the base of the skin up.

[00:12:47] You might be brushing the top inch of fur but against the skin is severely matted.

[00:12:52] But if you take the comb, it will let you know, oh, you're not getting down to the skin.

[00:12:56] There's a tangle here.

[00:12:57] So it helps indicate a little earlier that they might need to be shaved down or groomed.

[00:13:02] And you mentioned they might need to be shaved down.

[00:13:05] Can you explain a little bit why in that case it's better for everyone involved,

[00:13:10] the dog and the people involved when the dog is severely matted, to start over and do a short haircut?

[00:13:17] It's the most humane thing.

[00:13:19] I know a lot of people have an aversion to shaving them short.

[00:13:23] But if you have a dreadlock and you want to just rip and tear and comb it out and it's all on your scalp, it's painful.

[00:13:30] So not only does it hurt the dog, it could also cause brush burn, which could be a rash that causes the skin to bleed,

[00:13:37] which may lead to infection.

[00:13:38] And that's a vet visit that could be preventable as well as essentially it's basically just causing a bad memory for them.

[00:13:46] I don't want to cause any harm to the experience of a dog that's in my care.

[00:13:51] I really want to create a positive environment.

[00:13:53] And sitting there for hours and hours pulling and yanking and ripping and scratching them

[00:13:59] isn't going to leave them with a good experience at the end of the visit.

[00:14:02] And just to talk about, of course, as groomers, we would understand what that looks like and how to clip through those mats.

[00:14:10] But can you explain a little bit to somebody who has never held a pair of clippers before

[00:14:15] why it is more humane and comfortable for the dog to be able to clip underneath the mats?

[00:14:19] And just kind of what that process is.

[00:14:21] It basically becomes one whole piece.

[00:14:24] So there are some dogs that come in that I shave them and it's basically like a dog suit that comes off.

[00:14:31] And so trying to pull that apart, like I have a big chunk of a dog's tail that I literally will pull one side and the other and it will not budge.

[00:14:42] It is stuck.

[00:14:43] So trying to imagine that being on a dog and pulling it with a comb and a brush is basically traumatic.

[00:14:51] The clipper, the reason why we have to go short is the mats are against the skin.

[00:14:55] We have to get in between the skin and the mat safely.

[00:14:59] And the clipper is the most humane way to do that to cause the least amount of pain.

[00:15:04] Even though when you're shaving a dog that's that severely matted, like I do a lot of rescue dogs that are obviously in very bad shape,

[00:15:12] that can still be dangerous.

[00:15:14] It can still be uncomfortable because you've got a piece of fur that's going from this shoulder to their face.

[00:15:19] So when you start to shave here, it's pulling on the skin over there.

[00:15:23] That's why you want to prevent them from getting to that point because it can cause skin lesions.

[00:15:28] Sometimes the matting, once released, can the dog's ears or other parts of their bodies can get a hematoma because the blood flow is restricted.

[00:15:36] And as soon as you take the mat off, whether you do it exactly perfectly safe, it can still cause their ear to swell up.

[00:15:42] The tips of the ears can bleed.

[00:15:44] So those are all things that you want to get ahead of so that your dog doesn't get to that point.

[00:15:49] Now, you also talked a little bit earlier about senior dogs.

[00:15:53] So you do you work with dogs who are rescues or dogs who have some behavior or anxiety, but you also love to work with senior dogs.

[00:16:01] So can you talk a little bit about how grooming a senior dog might be a little bit different than grooming a younger dog?

[00:16:07] So senior dogs do have their challenges.

[00:16:10] Obviously, the first thing you can think of is health issues.

[00:16:13] Even just basic arthritis can cause the grooming experience to become more challenging.

[00:16:19] I have a lot of dogs that have become senile, which can cause them to be more aggressive.

[00:16:24] Even arthritis can cause aggression because if you think about it, these dogs have very limited means to communicate their comfort and their tolerance in what I'm doing.

[00:16:33] So if it's painful for me to just even pick up their foot because their bones are cracking and they're sore, they're going to react with biting.

[00:16:41] So it can be challenging.

[00:16:43] I typically, I mean, a lot of times towards the end of their life, we break the grooming up into sessions so that they're not there as long.

[00:16:53] It's less that we have to do each time.

[00:16:55] And a lot of owners, as long as they're understanding it, we have a great success because it's not like if you have a Yorkie that has to be groomed every six to eight weeks.

[00:17:02] When it gets older, it's not like you can stop.

[00:17:05] Right.

[00:17:05] Exactly.

[00:17:06] Especially with elderly dogs, their skin is thinner.

[00:17:09] They can have diabetes.

[00:17:10] They're more prone to infections.

[00:17:12] So those are the dogs that you really don't want to wait a long time to bring them in.

[00:17:17] A lot of people do that because they're like, oh, they can't handle it.

[00:17:20] If you have a groomer that's experienced with elderly dogs and you have a game plan on how you're going to approach it, whether it's switching to a really short haircut because that's what's best for them, starting to shave their faces because they don't have teeth and they're eating wet food and it makes a big mess.

[00:17:38] Adjusting their haircut and their grooming experience to the challenges of their age is paramount to maintaining their comfort.

[00:17:46] And it does tie in with what we discussed earlier that grooming is comfort.

[00:17:51] It's not just style.

[00:17:53] It's not just what we want the dogs to look like, but they do have to keep getting groomed because otherwise they might develop that matting that you were talking about that comes off in one piece or something else that can be really uncomfortable for them.

[00:18:05] So as hard as it can be sometimes with the senior dogs, it's really good to know there are groomers out there that will work with them and split it up and make sure that they're comfortable and they're having their needs met.

[00:18:16] Now, do you have any tips for dog owners that we did not cover?

[00:18:21] Because I want to make sure we cover those key points.

[00:18:24] Is there anything else that you want to share that we didn't go over?

[00:18:26] So I think the biggest thing that you can do at home to help create a positive experience for your dog is to touch your dog.

[00:18:35] Touch their mouth, touch their feet, lift their tails up, touch their ears.

[00:18:40] The more you're touching them at home, the less weird it is when I do it.

[00:18:44] As well as maintaining their teeth health when they go to the vet, it transfers to all of that.

[00:18:50] The other thing that I think can be controversial is crate training your dog.

[00:18:54] Even if you work at a salon that has one dog at a time, there might be an emergency that I have to crate your dog.

[00:19:01] A perfect quick example is one of my staff got one of those Starbucks Frappuccino drinks in a glass bottle and she dropped it.

[00:19:10] And we typically let the dogs run around.

[00:19:12] Now there's glass on the floor.

[00:19:13] We had to put everybody away.

[00:19:15] If there's a dog that cannot handle being in a crate, that's going to create a safety issue.

[00:19:19] They could hurt their mouth.

[00:19:21] They could hurt their paws.

[00:19:21] So making it a positive experience is really important.

[00:19:26] And I think it's really just if you have questions, ask your groomer.

[00:19:31] I love when my clients ask me questions.

[00:19:33] I love when they say, what brush should I get?

[00:19:35] Or what kind of technique should I be using?

[00:19:37] Or are there certain products you recommend?

[00:19:39] I don't know if a lot of groomers like being asked questions.

[00:19:42] I love it because that tells me that you really want to go above and beyond for your pet and do what's best for them.

[00:19:47] And I will take the time to sit down and say, these are some videos for you to watch.

[00:19:51] And these are some tips and tricks.

[00:19:53] And I recommend these products for you just to make it better for the dog.

[00:19:57] And I think it is important for clients to have that comfort level with the groomers as well.

[00:20:02] Like if your clients feel like they can ask you questions and they're comfortable doing that, that's huge.

[00:20:08] I think it's really important to make sure you are comfortable with the groomer that you're using.

[00:20:13] Yes, definitely.

[00:20:14] And I like that it's a team effort.

[00:20:16] So the client is doing their part at home.

[00:20:19] The groomer is doing their part every six weeks or every two weeks, just depending on what the dog needs.

[00:20:24] But it really is a team effort all for the dog's best interest.

[00:20:28] Absolutely.

[00:20:28] That's my goal is to make a positive experience for these dogs because they need haircuts.

[00:20:33] It's not like you can skip it.

[00:20:35] So it's all about creating a better environment for them and positive memories so that we can lessen the stress while they're in my care.

[00:20:44] Now, do you have any tips about just one more big tip of leaving your dog at the groomer?

[00:20:51] If you're a little bit nervous to walk away from your dog, maybe it's a first appointment or maybe you're at a new grooming salon.

[00:20:58] How should the client leave when they do have to drop their dog off?

[00:21:03] So this is actually very common.

[00:21:04] Your dog can feel when you're anxious and stressed.

[00:21:06] It's okay if you are.

[00:21:08] But the more you inflate that, the more your dog's going to react to why is mom so stressed out?

[00:21:14] Where is she bringing me?

[00:21:15] What is this place?

[00:21:17] A lot of dogs, I will let them watch their owner leave.

[00:21:21] And the second the door closes behind their owner, we're gone.

[00:21:24] Like they're sad and they're pulling away from me.

[00:21:26] And the second mom is gone or dad is gone, they're like, all right, where are we going?

[00:21:30] And we walk right back.

[00:21:31] They're great.

[00:21:32] And a lot of people are surprised.

[00:21:33] They'll be like, oh, how did they do?

[00:21:35] Were they super stressed?

[00:21:36] And they have a fun time.

[00:21:37] I do try to make it fun as much as we have to get work done.

[00:21:41] But a lot of people are shocked that their dog did so well.

[00:21:44] And it's really just feeding off of my energy.

[00:21:46] I try to come in every day with a positive attitude and be as playful with them as possible.

[00:21:53] And I think that they pick up on that as well as with the owners.

[00:21:56] Like, just take a breath.

[00:21:58] If you really don't trust your groomer, then maybe you need to find a different groomer.

[00:22:02] We do tours.

[00:22:03] You can walk right in.

[00:22:04] You can see where your dog's going to be.

[00:22:06] You can see the tools that we use.

[00:22:08] If you have a question about products, I'm happy to answer that.

[00:22:11] But everything is an open door.

[00:22:14] And so I think that helps with people being more comfortable.

[00:22:17] They can see where their dog's going to be.

[00:22:18] It's not like they're being pulled to a dark room in the back.

[00:22:22] They don't know what's happening.

[00:22:24] So I try to create not just for the dog, but a less anxious environment for the humans as well.

[00:22:29] And so important.

[00:22:30] It is.

[00:22:31] It's a big exercise in trust to let someone take your baby and go away with it and then give it back to you.

[00:22:38] That you don't know me.

[00:22:39] I mean, I could write a beautiful essay about all the things that I know how to do and how wonderful I am.

[00:22:44] But ultimately, we don't know people to people.

[00:22:46] So that's why I try to make my clients and the dogs as comfortable as possible.

[00:22:51] Because I know I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my dog with somebody that is brand new and strange.

[00:22:58] So I try to do everything that I can do that I wish someone would do for me if I was leaving my dog behind somewhere.

[00:23:06] Absolutely.

[00:23:07] Well, this was some great information today.

[00:23:09] I think we could probably talk about dog grooming all day.

[00:23:13] But for our listeners at home, we don't want to leave you too overwhelmed with all of this information.

[00:23:19] So thank you so much for being here with me today, Kathy.

[00:23:23] This was so much fun.

[00:23:24] You shared a lot of valuable information.

[00:23:27] Where can our listeners find you?

[00:23:29] Where's the best place to connect with you?

[00:23:31] So I do have like TikTok and Facebook.

[00:23:35] It's under cat loves dogs.

[00:23:37] My Facebook is with S's and my TikTok is with Z's on the loves and the dogs.

[00:23:44] So I post usually positive videos.

[00:23:46] Sometimes I'll do like some training tips.

[00:23:48] I'm actually going to start working on almost like a newsletter with like winter tips, products I like,

[00:23:54] just to kind of give people a place to find some good information about maintaining their pet's health and their hair.

[00:24:00] Perfect.

[00:24:01] And we will share these links right alongside this episode.

[00:24:04] If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a like, share it, and give us some feedback and let us know what you thought.

[00:24:11] Thanks so much for being here.

[00:24:12] Until next time.

[00:24:13] Thanks for having me.

[00:24:14] Bye.

[00:24:15] Bye.